In an interview on CNN-IBN’s Devil’s Advocate programme, Home Minister P Chidambaram tells Karan Thapar the goof-up in the list of most wanted terrorists provided to Pakistan will be a wake-up call for investigative agencies. Edited Excerpts:
Let’s start with the revelation that at least two out of the 30-odd Indians who you believe are fugitives from justice hiding in Pakistan turn out to be living in Mumbai. I’m talking specifically about Wazhul Kamar Khan and Feroze Abdul Rashid Khan. Has this embarrassed the home ministry?
Obviously, it embarrasses the Ministry of Home Affairs. We rely on lists given by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI), the Interpol’s national crime division. They maintain the list of most wanted against whom red corner notices are given. Please remember, both mistakes occurred in one part of the list, namely the red corner notices, and that is a list prepared by the CBI. It is embarrassing, it is regrettable. Since the list was handed over formally by the home secretary, we have taken, what I would call, constructive responsibility.
Now newspaper and television reports suggest that there is a third person on that list given to Pakistan, a certain CN Bashir, who is not in Pakistan, but in Sharjah, and there are television channels saying the CBI has a different list of most wanted where three people are dead and their red corner notices have not been withdrawn. Overall, looking at the government as a whole, not just the home ministry, all the agencies, people say this is incompetence.
Well, that’s a very harsh word. It’s a mistake, or two mistakes. Now Bashir, that’s speculation. He may have been in Pakistan. He may have moved out of Pakistan. These fugitives don’t stay in one place. They move from country to country. So that’s speculation. The mistakes have occurred in the red corner notices list and the CBI has owned up the mistake and the MHA has accepted constructive responsibility. Now if you want to raise it to the level of incompetence, that’s your call.
Speaking specifically about Wazhul Kamar Khan and Feroze Abdul Rashid Khan, the list handed at the of March by your home secretary to the Pakistan interior secretary, specifically said they were fugitives from justice… they are hiding in Pakistan, they are not. This has denigrated their name. Do you not owe them an apology?
They were fugitives from justice.
Not in March though.
No, wait a minute. I said they were. Red corner notices were indeed issued to them. Subsequently, they were arrested. So, it's not right to exonerate them at this stage. They are accused in grave charges. The mistake was, not removing their names from the red corner notices’ list and consequently the mistake of including them in the list handed over by the home secretary. But I think you are carrying the mistake too far to say that they are innocent people.
I'm not saying they're innocent. Now what I was saying is that they are aam aadmi Indian citizens and this it is a government in the name of aam aadmi. Yet you have handed over to a foreign government a list which claims that as of March, these people are fugitives from justice, on that date, they weren't. Do we not owe them an apology? No. I don't think this is a case where we owe anyone an apology. If we owe an apology, if we owe a regret, it's the regret that we have expressed, that there was a genuine human error in not updating the list. To that extent I think we have expressed regret, and we remain regretful.
What about the implications in the eyes of the Pakistanis of what the press in India call goof-ups? As you know, Pakistan is already dismissive of India's claim that it protects fugitives from Indian justice. Now after these goof-ups have emerged, Pakistan will be even more dismissive of your lists. Doesn't that worry you?
I doubt it. You see these lists have been exchanged in 2004, 2007 and in 2011. Pakistan has always been dismissive of the lists given in 2004 and 2007.
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Let me quote to you the headline of the BBC on Friday, “A huge lapse in intelligence gathering in India.” It must be making people laugh. Doesn't it worry you that the western press may be now in a sense, cocking a scoop at us?
I think you are exaggerating. I think the criticism is deserved, but I think it's disproportionate. Please remember, the BBC used the word 'lapse'. Let's move on.
Alright, but lapse is a euphemism.
No, lapse is an English word that correctly describes a human error.
Are you worried that in the coming few days you may discover more of what the press called goof-ups, that there may be more than just two people on that list of 50 given to Pakistan, who turn up to be in India?
Well, I hope not, because the National Investigation Agency, which was under the home ministry, gave a list of 10 names and they have given in writing that all 10 are believed to be fugitives from justice abroad. Now if the CBI discovers more mistakes, well I would be sorry for them, but I hope there are no mistakes.
You mentioned the NIA that comes directly under home ministry, in fact, it is said that the NIA is responsible for a certain Rajkumar Maygen. He is present on a different CBI list, but actually he has been in jail.
No, no. Maygen's arrest is known to everyone. Maygen's arrest has been published. The Manipur government wanted to put him in the list, again it's the Interpol division of CBI, which did not update that list and remove Maygen. Is it anybody's case that Maygen's arrest was not known?
So many of theses lapses originate with the Interpol division of the CBI. What does the government propose to do about the CBI?
I don't know. That's under the ministry of personnel and I'm sure that the ministry of state for personnel, sort of directly oversees, and I'll use the word carefully because the CBI has large degree of autonomy and I'm sure they will take steps to tone up the Interpol division. The director of CBI has already said he has asked a special director to look into the Interpol division and thoroughly over all the Interpol division.
Let's come to the American special operation in Abbottabad to kill Osama bin Laden. One of the questions that has arisen in India is does India have the ability and the capacity to carry out similar operations in Pakistan. Let me ask you bluntly. Do we have that ability?
I think this question is asked by people who are not aware of the special relationship between the US and Pakistan, and the special position which the US security forces have already established in Pakistan. It's that special relationship, the special position, which the US security forces enjoy in Pakistan, it's the special privilege that is given to them that allowed them to carry out this exercise which, in every way was a brilliant exercise. We do not have those special privileges. Therefore, if the question is a theoretical question: Can Indian forces carry out a special operation in a country, under certain circumstances, that's the way the question should be framed. I would say we have some capacity, but we have many constraints too.
General Shuja Pasha, the head of the ISI, has reportedly said Pakistan has a contingency plan in place in case India carries out special operations. The targets have been identified and, what he calls rehearsals, undertaken. How do you as home minister respond?
I don't attach too much credit to that statement. If that statement is true, if it's not being denied subsequently, I think it's just bluster.
Just bluster?
In his claim that they can retaliate in India against Indian targets, I think it's bluster.
What do you make of the fact that he claims rehearsals have been done?
Same description.
There has been speculation in the western Press, The Times in England in particular, that India has established some sort of back-channel contact with General Kayani, which has given you some form of assurance, that the talks process will be meaningful. Is there any contact with General Kayani?
I don't know and even if I did, I wouldn't say it to you.
So which is the correct answer, you don't know?
Both are correct.
Finally, has the fact that Osama bin Laden got away living in Pakistan undetected for five years, changed the security perception of Pakistan that you have as Home Minister?
Well it has to some extent, that if they can shelter someone so notorious as Osama bin Laden, then it confirms our suspicions that they are sheltering many more.
And it’s made you more wary?
And therefore, we have to be constantly on alert. We cannot afford to lower our vision. Therefore, we have to be prepared to face a situation where many other potential terrorists have found potential sanctuary in Pakistan. That’s the worry.