Game of Thrones: Aidan Gillen on Littlefinger's Stark obsession

Petyr “Littlefinger” Baelish has helped to orchestrate many of the most monumental events in “Game of Thrones,” a list that includes Ned Stark’s downfall, the Stark-Lannister conflict and Joffrey’s murder.

This outsize impact is even more impressive, given his penchant for skulking at the margins of the story. The past few episodes have seen him doing the same at Winterfell, where on Sunday he unveiled his most despicable gambit yet: A scheme to turn Arya and Sansa Stark, the endlessly persecuted sisters, against one another.

Littlefinger wasn’t born bad — at least that’s the theory of the man who plays him, Aidan Gillen. Rather his merciless ambition has its source in the shame he experienced as an even littler finger, when he was rejected by Catelyn Tully (Arya and Sansa’s mother) in favor of the brawnier Ned Stark.

“It’s a reaction to being humiliated and spurned as a young man in matters of love,” Mr. Gillen said on Monday afternoon. “And he’s good at it, you know? This ‘Game of Thrones’ universe, it’s a wicked world.”

Before “Game of Thrones,” Mr. Gillen was perhaps best known to American audiences as the calculating politician Tommy Carcetti on “The Wire” — he will also appear next season in the Netflix crime drama “Peaky Blinders.” Speaking by phone from Dublin, he discussed Littlefinger’s plans for the Starks and why his interest in Sansa might not be as creepy as you think. These are edited excerpts from the conversation.

Why are you so evil?

It’s pathological. I’m not trying to play him as a complete villain, really, although he had his hand in many of the more treacherous acts or events we’ve seen over seven seasons. Most of them, in fact.

Is his plan to divide Arya and Sansa just his usual sort of manipulation? Or is there more to it with the Stark girls?

There’s always something more to it when it involves the Starks, given his history with Catelyn Stark and that rejection, and that that’s what’s driving him. But I wouldn’t say the undermining of the Stark family has been a goal. It’s opportunistic. He couldn’t have foretold that Arya was going to show up again, and that Bran was going to show up again. He has played his part in the rise of the Starks, showing up last season with the Knights of the Vale, but he will also undermine it and exploit it. That’s what he’s doing — he’s trying to drive wedges between all of them.

How much of what we see comes from his overarching plans and how much is just him reacting to events?

It’s a mixture of both. He always seems to have a more far-reaching plan but it can be tailored quite instantaneously, depending on what fortune throws his way. Some of it is just guessing, and it doesn’t always go right. But it usually does. [Laughs.]

The one plan he has articulated involves him on the Iron Throne with Sansa at his side —

Yeah, maybe.

Maybe?

I don’t imagine that was to be taken literally. It was intended to be taken literally by Sansa. But with this character he’ll say something and mean something else. It wasn’t far off the mark.

Are we supposed to believe he has actual affection for her?

That was maybe unintentional. I’m not really playing a romantic interest there. I know that’s how it appears, but it’s something slightly different.

How would you characterize it?

Kind of mentoring, in terms of schooling Sansa in the ways of manipulation, the ways to play the game, or the ways to survive. Of course there’s a certain lack of clarity in what he’s after, and I think that’s the way it should be. I don’t think I should have to say anything about it.

Do you know his ultimate end game? Or are you in the dark, too?

For the last couple of seasons we have been in the dark — we don’t have books to consult anymore. I guess if you really wanted to hound the writers for your end game, they might indulge you. But I personally don’t like to know. I think if you know it, you play it, and you might do something obvious.

In the beginning Littlefinger was more inscrutable but he’s since become a more transparently villainous character. Which was more fun to play?

Even with the obvious villainy, you’re always trying to at least make it likable and for there to be some fun to it. Sometimes it’s just a matter of screen time. If you still have a lot of story to tell in a certain amount of episodes, sometimes you’ve got to get straight to plot detail. It might seem a bit more black-and-white or, in my case, villainous. There’s so much story going on at the moment. You’re living in the shadow of dragons.

The show has gotten much faster, narratively.

There’s a lot of story still to tell. But a lot of this is what people have been waiting to see happen, and alliances people have been hoping for for so long. No matter how you pace it, it’s probably going to seem like it’s happening pretty fast. But the audience has to always feel they’re privy to intimate moments. There was a beautiful moment in last night’s episode with Daenerys and Jon Snow — it’s great to see her show that vulnerability again. Despite the breakneck pace of development, it’s important for the makers to take their time with those moments.

The ill-will people wish for your character, on social media, is pretty profound —

Is it? I don’t look at that stuff. What are they calling for, specifically?

They want Arya to wear your face some day, for example.

O.K. [Laughs.] I may wear her face.

Who do you think poses the biggest threat to him?

The most immediate threat would be whoever he’s manipulating on a day-to-day basis. But he’s quite clever about that. Varys and Littlefinger are two guys who each really know what the other is up to. So there’s always a threat from Varys, even though we haven’t seen them together for awhile. Bran is another great threat — of course Littlefinger clocked exactly what Bran said when he repeated that “Chaos is a ladder.” It was an unsettling moment, for sure.

Why do you think Olenna declined to mention his role in Joffrey’s murder a couple weeks ago, when she confessed to it?

You’d have to ask her — I wondered about that myself. She wanted all the credit, maybe. That’s luck for you.