 "In a parliamentary democracy, you don't go by ego: Ravi Shankar Prasad")
Deputy Leader of Opposition in the Rajya Sabha Ravi Shankar Prasad tells Gyan Varma that while the Bharatiya Janata Party was seeking the resignation of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Law Minister Ashwani Kumar, Railway Minister Pawan Kumar Bansal's issue came as a bonus
Exactly two days after the Budget session ended abruptly, the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government sacked two Union ministers - Pawan Kumar Bansal and Ashwani Kumar. Do you think the government could have saved the session by acting earlier?
Without a doubt. In a parliamentary democracy, you don't go by ego. The Opposition was justified in seeking the resignation of these two ministers. Leader of Opposition in the Lok Sabha Sushma Swaraj had first demanded their resignation. We must not forget that it all started with our demand for the resignation of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Law Minister Ashwani Kumar. Railway Minister Pawan Kumar Bansal's issue was a bonus; we didn't ask for it. If the government could ask the two ministers to resign hardly a few days after Parliament declared sine die, why not earlier? Since there was no escape for them, they were made scapegoats.
When you look at the Budget session now, do you suspect the Union government was not serious about allowing Parliament to function, and so it chose to act after the session?
The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has repeatedly maintained that the corruption case against Bansal is an open-and-shut case. Why do you think the government protected him for more than a week?
This is for the Union government to answer. The person who gave the money was a senior officer; and the money was given to a person very close to the railway minister. He was in regular touch, and all big posts were up for sale. The highest bidder could get them. For the first time in the history of independent India, we have come across a case where a post at the secretary level was up for sale. I think on the very first day, the railway minister should have resigned; he should have been questioned and prosecuted. It is a copybook case of Section 13(D) of the Prevention of Corruption Act.
Now that Kumar has resigned, is it not hard to believe that the prime minister was unaware that the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) officials and the law minister interfered in the status report?
Well, a few questions are clear. Why did the joint secretary of the PMO attend the meeting? He could not have done on his own. Either the prime minister or the principal secretary had authorised him. Kumar, a lawyer himself, knows that in a court-monitored investigation and even otherwise, there should be no interference. Yet, he called a meeting; and no minutes of the meeting were maintained, which the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has confirmed in the affidavit. And an attempt was made to weaken the very heart of the investigation. Obviously, he was trying to bail out the prime minister. Kumar acted as the buffer for the prime minister. That's how the BJP looks at the issue. Therefore, it renews our demand for the resignation of the prime minister.
The CBI was investigating Bansal and his family members for more than two months. Do you suspect the government was unaware of the 1,000 calls recorded by the CBI, or it chose to look the other way?
Naturally, the government chose to look the other way. I am not prepared to believe that the Union government was not in the know of it. And the reason for Bansal's hasty removal was that the government suspected that the media might already have a copy of the records, and there was an apprehension of these becoming public.
The BJP has announced 'Jail Bharo Andolan' from May 27 to June 2. Nationwide protests and agitations have been started by the BJP earlier, too. Even L K Advani had toured the country. Do you think such agitations will inspire people to vote for the BJP?
Why not? Because the people of the country, including us, hadn't thought that there would be so much corruption. One scam after another is being unearthed at an alarming regularity. And how are we sure there would not be another scam in the coming months? The question is: how long? Let us recount - Commonwealth Games, Adarsh, 2G, Coalgate, helicopter, airport land issue -to cite a few. I am clear that without the Opposition's pressure, both inside and outside Parliament, media coverage and intervention of the court, this government would not have taken any action in any of these scams.
BJP President Rajnath Singh has said the party is worried about the fate of the food security and the land acquisition Bills. Why did the BJP not support the government when the food security Bill was tabled this time? Can we expect the two Bills to be passed in the monsoon session with the BJP's support?
We understand the seriousness of these two Bills, and we have many things to add in the discussion. But Swaraj had categorically stated that the two ministers must resign. We are willing to let Parliament function smoothly, but the government was not serious. In view of the circumstances, I would say the government was trying to divert the attention by bringing these two Bills and sought to get them passed in haste.
Why didn't the BJP or the Congress work towards making the CBI autonomous earlier, and ultimately, the Supreme Court had to intervene?
As far as the BJP's track record is concerned, nobody has ever heard that we sought to interfere in the CBI's investigation. I have been the law minister, and so has Leader of Opposition in Rajya Sabha Arun Jaitley.
Let me tell something important... all of us know the case of Advani in the Ram Janambhoomi case. Did we withdraw the case? This shows our record. The CBI tried to prosecute him in the most malicious manner. This is our record. During the meetings of select committee on the Lok Pal issue, Jaitley along with other BJP leaders gave suggestions: make the CBI director's tenure a fixed tenure and a collegium for his/her appointment, no post-retirement benefits, and separation of directorate of prosecution and directorate of investigation. We are ready to support if the government comes up with a structured response.
Both the Union ministers were supposedly hand-picked by the prime minister and finally, they resigned after the UPA chairperson stepped in. More than five ministers have resigned in the UPA-II. How do you view this situation?
Well, no minister charged of corruption can continue if UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi doesn't allow them to continue. In 2009, Gandhi and the prime minister made a public declaration that within 100 days, inflation and corruption will be controlled by the Union government. Now, it has been four years. I don't buy this logic. The government finally decided to act because there was no escape route at all in view of the mud on its face. That is why the two ministers were asked to resign. We would demand that prime minister must also resign because he may give alibi of coalition politics on others, but Coalgate scam goes to his gate.
Exactly two days after the Budget session ended abruptly, the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government sacked two Union ministers - Pawan Kumar Bansal and Ashwani Kumar. Do you think the government could have saved the session by acting earlier?
Without a doubt. In a parliamentary democracy, you don't go by ego. The Opposition was justified in seeking the resignation of these two ministers. Leader of Opposition in the Lok Sabha Sushma Swaraj had first demanded their resignation. We must not forget that it all started with our demand for the resignation of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Law Minister Ashwani Kumar. Railway Minister Pawan Kumar Bansal's issue was a bonus; we didn't ask for it. If the government could ask the two ministers to resign hardly a few days after Parliament declared sine die, why not earlier? Since there was no escape for them, they were made scapegoats.
When you look at the Budget session now, do you suspect the Union government was not serious about allowing Parliament to function, and so it chose to act after the session?
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The primary responsibility of running Parliament is of the government. If the government wanted Bills to be passed, we, too, have our parliamentary right to seek accountability. But the government wanted only its part of the parliamentary obligation to be fulfiled, not our part. Therefore, all the position the government took fell flat only two days later. This indicates how serious it was about running Parliament.
The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has repeatedly maintained that the corruption case against Bansal is an open-and-shut case. Why do you think the government protected him for more than a week?
This is for the Union government to answer. The person who gave the money was a senior officer; and the money was given to a person very close to the railway minister. He was in regular touch, and all big posts were up for sale. The highest bidder could get them. For the first time in the history of independent India, we have come across a case where a post at the secretary level was up for sale. I think on the very first day, the railway minister should have resigned; he should have been questioned and prosecuted. It is a copybook case of Section 13(D) of the Prevention of Corruption Act.
Now that Kumar has resigned, is it not hard to believe that the prime minister was unaware that the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) officials and the law minister interfered in the status report?
Well, a few questions are clear. Why did the joint secretary of the PMO attend the meeting? He could not have done on his own. Either the prime minister or the principal secretary had authorised him. Kumar, a lawyer himself, knows that in a court-monitored investigation and even otherwise, there should be no interference. Yet, he called a meeting; and no minutes of the meeting were maintained, which the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has confirmed in the affidavit. And an attempt was made to weaken the very heart of the investigation. Obviously, he was trying to bail out the prime minister. Kumar acted as the buffer for the prime minister. That's how the BJP looks at the issue. Therefore, it renews our demand for the resignation of the prime minister.
The CBI was investigating Bansal and his family members for more than two months. Do you suspect the government was unaware of the 1,000 calls recorded by the CBI, or it chose to look the other way?
Naturally, the government chose to look the other way. I am not prepared to believe that the Union government was not in the know of it. And the reason for Bansal's hasty removal was that the government suspected that the media might already have a copy of the records, and there was an apprehension of these becoming public.
The BJP has announced 'Jail Bharo Andolan' from May 27 to June 2. Nationwide protests and agitations have been started by the BJP earlier, too. Even L K Advani had toured the country. Do you think such agitations will inspire people to vote for the BJP?
Why not? Because the people of the country, including us, hadn't thought that there would be so much corruption. One scam after another is being unearthed at an alarming regularity. And how are we sure there would not be another scam in the coming months? The question is: how long? Let us recount - Commonwealth Games, Adarsh, 2G, Coalgate, helicopter, airport land issue -to cite a few. I am clear that without the Opposition's pressure, both inside and outside Parliament, media coverage and intervention of the court, this government would not have taken any action in any of these scams.
BJP President Rajnath Singh has said the party is worried about the fate of the food security and the land acquisition Bills. Why did the BJP not support the government when the food security Bill was tabled this time? Can we expect the two Bills to be passed in the monsoon session with the BJP's support?
We understand the seriousness of these two Bills, and we have many things to add in the discussion. But Swaraj had categorically stated that the two ministers must resign. We are willing to let Parliament function smoothly, but the government was not serious. In view of the circumstances, I would say the government was trying to divert the attention by bringing these two Bills and sought to get them passed in haste.
Why didn't the BJP or the Congress work towards making the CBI autonomous earlier, and ultimately, the Supreme Court had to intervene?
As far as the BJP's track record is concerned, nobody has ever heard that we sought to interfere in the CBI's investigation. I have been the law minister, and so has Leader of Opposition in Rajya Sabha Arun Jaitley.
Let me tell something important... all of us know the case of Advani in the Ram Janambhoomi case. Did we withdraw the case? This shows our record. The CBI tried to prosecute him in the most malicious manner. This is our record. During the meetings of select committee on the Lok Pal issue, Jaitley along with other BJP leaders gave suggestions: make the CBI director's tenure a fixed tenure and a collegium for his/her appointment, no post-retirement benefits, and separation of directorate of prosecution and directorate of investigation. We are ready to support if the government comes up with a structured response.
Both the Union ministers were supposedly hand-picked by the prime minister and finally, they resigned after the UPA chairperson stepped in. More than five ministers have resigned in the UPA-II. How do you view this situation?
Well, no minister charged of corruption can continue if UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi doesn't allow them to continue. In 2009, Gandhi and the prime minister made a public declaration that within 100 days, inflation and corruption will be controlled by the Union government. Now, it has been four years. I don't buy this logic. The government finally decided to act because there was no escape route at all in view of the mud on its face. That is why the two ministers were asked to resign. We would demand that prime minister must also resign because he may give alibi of coalition politics on others, but Coalgate scam goes to his gate.