 "Our only objective is to have the NDA in power in Patna: Ram Vilas Paswan")
Ram Vilas Paswan, Minister for Consumer Affairs and Food and Public Distribution in the Narendra Modi government, tells Aditi Phadnis, Sanjeeb Mukherjee and Archis Mohan how Jitan Ram Manjhi will be an asset for the Bharatiya Janata Party-led alliance but results will prove whether he represents all Mahadalits or only has support among people of his caste. Edited excerpts:
Isn't Jitan Ram Manjhi's joining the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) a challenge to your Dalit support in Bihar?
The Schedule Caste is not one single caste. There are 22 castes among the Schedule Castes in Bihar. Major castes are Paswan, Ravidas, also known as Jatav, Dhobi, Passi and others. Among these is also Musahar. Manjhi is a Musahar. All these castes have their own leaders in Bihar. Janata Dal (United) leader and Assembly Speaker Uday Narayan Choudhary is a Passi, senior minister (in the Nitish Kumar government) Shyam Rajak a Dhobi and Ramai Ram is a Ravidas. The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) also has Dalit leaders. The Manjhis are in significant numbers in Gaya, Araria and Purnea districts. In Gaya, the BJP has a sitting MP, Hari Ram Manjhi.
This Assembly election will show us whether Manjhi represents the whole of the Mahadalits, or some of its sections, or only his own caste. That his joining NDA will benefit the alliance is not in doubt. But to say that his presence will harm the LJP in any way is unfounded.
The BJP's Bihar campaign will talk about development. But they have also been talking of caste alliances. Isn't there a contradiction?
Both caste and development will be there. Caste is a reality not just in Bihar, but throughout India. It is true that caste dominates Bihar politics like nowhere else. However, you cannot win an election by the votes of one community alone.
It is widely recognised that Mayawati is the Dalit leader in Uttar Pradesh and Ram Vilas Paswan in Bihar. Kumar created this Dalit and Mahadalit to weaken me and then he made Manjhi the chief minister in the name of Mahadalit. Now, Manjhi has become a thorn in his flesh.
Will you and your party campaign for Manjhi's candidates?
We do not yet know the shape of the understanding between the NDA allies. We have also heard Manjhi say that he will contest elections with the BJP. There will be several ifs and buts in this because most of those now with Manjhi are people who had earlier quit the LJP.
My party's state unit president, Pasupati Kumar Paras, has said that those who have quit LJP to join Manjhi cannot be given precedence in seat adjustment. There will be no compromise on that. As for Manjhi, we have no rivalry. I welcome him. But we shouldn't forget during seat distribution that when it came to the no-confidence motion against Kumar in the Assembly, some of these ticket aspirants with Manjhi were people who didn't take risk and voted for Kumar. Manjhi was left alone. So, these issues will come up.
As far as LJP is concerned, our one and only objective is to have the NDA in power in Patna. I am also not very sure that the Lalu Prasad and Nitish Kumar alliance will strengthen them. In politics, one and one do not make 11. My experience tells me Prasad's support base will not vote for Kumar and vice versa. And then, Lalu Prasad saying that he has swallowed poison to protect secularism. So, who is this poison?
But it isn't exactly ram rajya in your alliance?
But all of that is BJP's internal matter.
The tussle is between Lalu Prasad and Nitish Kumar. The Congress, particularly Rahul Gandhi, gave Prasad a jolt by announcing that Kumar will be the CM. Nobody consulted Prasad.
But what about your party?
We have made our stand clear. Neither I nor anyone from my party wants to be CM. The same goes for Upendra Kushwaha and his party. The BJP is the largest of the NDA parties, and its leader is Narendra Modi. It is for them to decide.
You are from the socialist movement. Don't you feel uncomfortable?
No. And why don't you ask Sharad Yadav about this? As for my ideological principles, I said about 'ghar wapsi' that the Constitution was supreme and that no one should be induced or coerced into changing their religion. I also said it was wrong to ban non-Hindus from entering the Somnath Temple. Modi has clearly said that this country belongs to all.
Modi is on a mission, and such people, like the Vishva Hindu Parishad, put obstacles in that mission. It harms the mission. Modi's mission is development. I can tell you with some authority that Modi doesn't like all this.
Tell me, has there been a single case of communal riots in the last one year? Take the case of the Hashimpura massacre (of 1987 near Meerut). All the accused have walked free. Who was in the government? Who was responsible for Bhagalpur, Meerut and Moradabad? It's been 12 years to Gujarat. Nearly an era has passed. I was the one to quit the (Atal Bihari) Vajpayee government at that time. Did any of these who claim to be secular resign?
In 2005, I asked Prasad to make a Muslim the chief minister and I said I would support that government (in Patna). He didn't and from thereon started his downfall.
What will be the thrust of your campaigning in Bihar?
We will focus on development, bring out a vision document about the NDA's plans for Bihar - to construct roads and bridges, provide job opportunities to youth, minority development and projects for Scheduled Castes. In the Lok Sabha elections, Prasad and Kumar's caste card was useless. Kumar had promised land to the Mahadalits but didn't keep his promise. He distributed radios of such bad quality that you want to tune into a radio station in Patna but end up with BBC. The cycles the government bought or the uniforms it distributed were purchased at a cost that could have ensured a cycle or garments factory in each district.
But you cannot deny that roads have been constructed...
Where are the roads? The Centre, whether the UPA or NDA, has granted substantial funds. Where has that money been used? Not a single factory, even to make needles, has been set up.
The Modi government wants to bring in land acquisition. Bihar will benefit the most from this. It will help construct hospitals, irrigation canals, railways lines, provide job to the son of a farmer whose land has been acquired... but they don't have sense and are busy doing politics with this.
What about a possibility of a coalition government where the BJP's numbers are fewer?
How is that possible? We may not even be able to form a government if the BJP's numbers are less. The BJP will contest a major portion of the 243 Assembly seats. My seats might be more or less, but I will not be the CM.
The Congress had faulted the Modi government and the BJP for its chest thumping on the army's covert operation in Myanmar.
After the Bangladesh war of 1971, Vajpayeeji said Indira Gandhi was Goddess Durga. Atalji honoured her by gifting a sword. Those were the kind of leaders then. We now have leaders trying to underestimate the good work that our army has done. They should keep the national interest above their petty political interests.
Isn't Jitan Ram Manjhi's joining the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) a challenge to your Dalit support in Bihar?
The Schedule Caste is not one single caste. There are 22 castes among the Schedule Castes in Bihar. Major castes are Paswan, Ravidas, also known as Jatav, Dhobi, Passi and others. Among these is also Musahar. Manjhi is a Musahar. All these castes have their own leaders in Bihar. Janata Dal (United) leader and Assembly Speaker Uday Narayan Choudhary is a Passi, senior minister (in the Nitish Kumar government) Shyam Rajak a Dhobi and Ramai Ram is a Ravidas. The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) also has Dalit leaders. The Manjhis are in significant numbers in Gaya, Araria and Purnea districts. In Gaya, the BJP has a sitting MP, Hari Ram Manjhi.
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What Kumar did was to include each of these castes into the Mahadalit category, barring the Paswans. The Paswans have supported me ever since I fought my first election in 1969. They haven't bothered whether Ram Vilas Paswan is with the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) or NDA. It is a transferable vote. Elections and alliances come and go but the Lok Janshakti Party (LJP)'s vote is constant at eight to nine per cent.
This Assembly election will show us whether Manjhi represents the whole of the Mahadalits, or some of its sections, or only his own caste. That his joining NDA will benefit the alliance is not in doubt. But to say that his presence will harm the LJP in any way is unfounded.
The BJP's Bihar campaign will talk about development. But they have also been talking of caste alliances. Isn't there a contradiction?
Both caste and development will be there. Caste is a reality not just in Bihar, but throughout India. It is true that caste dominates Bihar politics like nowhere else. However, you cannot win an election by the votes of one community alone.
It is widely recognised that Mayawati is the Dalit leader in Uttar Pradesh and Ram Vilas Paswan in Bihar. Kumar created this Dalit and Mahadalit to weaken me and then he made Manjhi the chief minister in the name of Mahadalit. Now, Manjhi has become a thorn in his flesh.
Will you and your party campaign for Manjhi's candidates?
We do not yet know the shape of the understanding between the NDA allies. We have also heard Manjhi say that he will contest elections with the BJP. There will be several ifs and buts in this because most of those now with Manjhi are people who had earlier quit the LJP.
My party's state unit president, Pasupati Kumar Paras, has said that those who have quit LJP to join Manjhi cannot be given precedence in seat adjustment. There will be no compromise on that. As for Manjhi, we have no rivalry. I welcome him. But we shouldn't forget during seat distribution that when it came to the no-confidence motion against Kumar in the Assembly, some of these ticket aspirants with Manjhi were people who didn't take risk and voted for Kumar. Manjhi was left alone. So, these issues will come up.
As far as LJP is concerned, our one and only objective is to have the NDA in power in Patna. I am also not very sure that the Lalu Prasad and Nitish Kumar alliance will strengthen them. In politics, one and one do not make 11. My experience tells me Prasad's support base will not vote for Kumar and vice versa. And then, Lalu Prasad saying that he has swallowed poison to protect secularism. So, who is this poison?
But it isn't exactly ram rajya in your alliance?
But all of that is BJP's internal matter.
The tussle is between Lalu Prasad and Nitish Kumar. The Congress, particularly Rahul Gandhi, gave Prasad a jolt by announcing that Kumar will be the CM. Nobody consulted Prasad.
But what about your party?
We have made our stand clear. Neither I nor anyone from my party wants to be CM. The same goes for Upendra Kushwaha and his party. The BJP is the largest of the NDA parties, and its leader is Narendra Modi. It is for them to decide.
You are from the socialist movement. Don't you feel uncomfortable?
No. And why don't you ask Sharad Yadav about this? As for my ideological principles, I said about 'ghar wapsi' that the Constitution was supreme and that no one should be induced or coerced into changing their religion. I also said it was wrong to ban non-Hindus from entering the Somnath Temple. Modi has clearly said that this country belongs to all.
Modi is on a mission, and such people, like the Vishva Hindu Parishad, put obstacles in that mission. It harms the mission. Modi's mission is development. I can tell you with some authority that Modi doesn't like all this.
Tell me, has there been a single case of communal riots in the last one year? Take the case of the Hashimpura massacre (of 1987 near Meerut). All the accused have walked free. Who was in the government? Who was responsible for Bhagalpur, Meerut and Moradabad? It's been 12 years to Gujarat. Nearly an era has passed. I was the one to quit the (Atal Bihari) Vajpayee government at that time. Did any of these who claim to be secular resign?
In 2005, I asked Prasad to make a Muslim the chief minister and I said I would support that government (in Patna). He didn't and from thereon started his downfall.
What will be the thrust of your campaigning in Bihar?
We will focus on development, bring out a vision document about the NDA's plans for Bihar - to construct roads and bridges, provide job opportunities to youth, minority development and projects for Scheduled Castes. In the Lok Sabha elections, Prasad and Kumar's caste card was useless. Kumar had promised land to the Mahadalits but didn't keep his promise. He distributed radios of such bad quality that you want to tune into a radio station in Patna but end up with BBC. The cycles the government bought or the uniforms it distributed were purchased at a cost that could have ensured a cycle or garments factory in each district.
But you cannot deny that roads have been constructed...
Where are the roads? The Centre, whether the UPA or NDA, has granted substantial funds. Where has that money been used? Not a single factory, even to make needles, has been set up.
The Modi government wants to bring in land acquisition. Bihar will benefit the most from this. It will help construct hospitals, irrigation canals, railways lines, provide job to the son of a farmer whose land has been acquired... but they don't have sense and are busy doing politics with this.
What about a possibility of a coalition government where the BJP's numbers are fewer?
How is that possible? We may not even be able to form a government if the BJP's numbers are less. The BJP will contest a major portion of the 243 Assembly seats. My seats might be more or less, but I will not be the CM.
The Congress had faulted the Modi government and the BJP for its chest thumping on the army's covert operation in Myanmar.
After the Bangladesh war of 1971, Vajpayeeji said Indira Gandhi was Goddess Durga. Atalji honoured her by gifting a sword. Those were the kind of leaders then. We now have leaders trying to underestimate the good work that our army has done. They should keep the national interest above their petty political interests.