 "Nitish Kumar")
Nitish Kumar, chief minister of Bihar and now a proclaimed foe of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), was quizzed on his stance by Shekhar Gupta on NDTV's Walk The Talk programme. Edited excerpts:
You say the country's politics should now happen in two poles. Do explain.
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Under the Bharatiya Janata Party's (BJP) leadership, the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) did very well in the 2014 elections. The BJP got more seats than they could have imagined. People wanted a change and there were a lot of expectations from them.
Did you also have expectations?
No. I have my own understanding of the BJP; we worked with them for a long time in an alliance. The BJP's approach under the leadership of Atalji was very different. There can't be similarity in our thinking and theirs but their approach to governance was different and so, we never faced any difficulty. After getting a lot of support, Narendra Modi started saying things in a very aggressive manner and people started thinking that he is the only one who can do something.
They (BJP) did reap the benefits of that but now their performance is not of the same level; be it employment generation, getting black money back or the farmer crisis. There is disenchantment. Some slogans are being raised to distract people from these important issues - sometimes they talk of love jihad, sometimes they talk of ghar wapsi, sometimes the issue of beef. All this failed, so now you see a switch to talk of patriotism; Bharat Mata Ki Jai.
They are saying everyone must hoist a 207-ft high national flag; they were nowhere when our national leaders chose the national flag. People with new-found love for the flag are saying that others don't love the flag. They are trying to divert people's attention.
The flag issue came more from the universities, that our universities have a lot of left-thinking people, a lot of anti-national people, they have forgotten patriotism and so the the order to hoist a 207-ft flag in all central universities...
Why do you have a problem if someone in a particular university believes in a certain ideology? We got freedom and democracy after a lot of struggle and it is because of this democracy that they have got this chance today. They want to impose their thinking, they want to rule over all the universities. People will accept your thinking if it is strong and has merit; you can't popularise your thinking by imposing it.
The 2014 election wasn't an ideological win for the BJP; they only benefited from the anger against the Congress. After not fulfilling their promises, they're trying to divide the country. It is because of this situation that we need a broad alliance against them. If this doesn't happen, then the BJP's poisonous thinking will spread... poison acts quickly. We need to find an antidote to the poison before it spreads. To do that, we need maximum possible unity.
Why did the (issues of) cow and Pakistan not work in Bihar? They said if BJP loses in Bihar, there will be fireworks in Pakistan.
We had said there will be fireworks in India, not Pakistan, which is exactly what happened. They took the 2014 win as their win. They thought they could own the entire country. But, that election was not fought on the basis of ideology. There was a negative attitude towards the then condition; they understood the people's aspirations and based on that, presented certain programmes which people liked. And, of course, their workers were very active on the ground. But, it was not a victory for their thinking or ideology. Another mistake they made is, the things they were saying about Bihar were in no way near the truth. They spoke of electricity shortage, of jungle raj but people knew for themselves how things had changed.
There has never been any personal tension between you and Modi?
I personally respect him. These people fought the 2010 elections under my leadership, they were in government with me. They never said anything against me in 2010 but suddenly in 2014, 2015... Sometimes when people separate, they forget all the earlier things. When we all meet, we meet amicably, at least from my side. I have no bad feelings.
They ask how can you call them casteist when they have given this country an elected PM from the backward class.
The PM should never be labelled by his caste or religion; he belongs to the entire country. The post's dignity should be maintained in all circumstances. Our country is full of diversity and we have that one post, not only an executive post but also symbolic.
Will people will be able to bury their ideological differences, their personal differences, personal ambitions to form an alliance against the Sangh? There is a tradition in the Janata Dal family of everyone wanting to be the PM.
Personal differences and ambition will have to be set aside to fight the BJP ideology. If you want to free the country before their ideology takes strong root, you will have to let go of certain things. We will have to make a political strategy that accommodates everyone.
Why couldn't you do this in Assam?
We wanted to but the Congress' Assam unit thought it is better if they fight alone. It was their decision. If a grand alliance had been formed, we would have got a bigger victory than in Bihar.
Would you not have preferred for national reasons that you and the RJD had combined with the Congress and not with Maulana Ajmal?
Maulana Ajmal says what he wants very clearly. The things that are being said about him are wrong. That man is very frank and secular. If no party gets a majority in Assam, then Ajmal will help the secular parties. And, he is a nationalist. I spoke to him three-four times and I have no doubts about him.
Given the Assam precedent, will you be able to stitch something in UP? Who should come together? Do you want Mayawati and the Samajwadi Party (SP) to ally?
As you know, we tried bringing together six parties and also announced Mulayam Singh Yadav as our leader but he backed out. He opposed us unnecessarily in the Bihar elections. And, you can't ignore the Congress. A coalition against the BJP is not possible without the Congress and the Left. Everyone will suffer if an anti-BJP coalition is not formed.
Can the Congress, you, SP, Ajit Singh come together?
Samajwadi Party does not ally with anyone, in UP or in other states. It is the same with Mayawati. What will happen cannot be predicted but we should make an effort at the maximum possible unity, for a one-point agenda.
You have seen Modi from a CM to a PM? Is it evolution for the better?
He will have to answer that through his work.
Rahul Gandhi?
I see he has a commitment towards the country, towards growth, development and the marginalised section. That's on the basis of the interaction I have had with him. From my personal experience, I know he has clarity.
Arvind Kejriwal?
A self-made man; his is no ordinary achievement. Delhi's size is not important, it is the country's capital. To achieve a majority in the capital, where on the one side there is the elite class and on the other, people who hardly make a living....he kept campaigning and the success he got after that, the issues he raised...
Do you see him at a national level by 2019?
A man who can get such a big victory in Delhi definitely has the capability.
And, another leader, someone you have worked with - Lalu Prasad Yadav. How has he changed? You were his friend, then opponent, now friends again.
There were some reasons for our separation but it was extremely necessary for us to come together, given today's political situation. We would have given the ideology we think is wrong a chance to gain strength, had we not united. We set aside our differences to stop that ideology. I have let go of all past differences and the way he has been behaving, it seems even he has let go of all previous differences. Democracy is strengthened when you have the capability to accommodate.
An alliance won't work without a leader. If you are told to lead this alliance against the BJP, will you be ready to become the leader?
It is not a question about me being ready or not. When a broad-based coalition is formed, all these issues can be resolved. First, people need to be ready and I will keep working for that, whether or not I succeed.
And, even you love Bharat Mata.
Who doesn't? We have always said Bharat Mata Ki Jai but I can't understand how this has become a political issue. BJP takes up issues which will divide the country and turns these into a debate. The issues should be when will black money come back, when will the youth get jobs. They should be answering these questions. Did they talk about Bharat Mata Ki Jai in 2014? The country is as much ours as it is yours, I tell the BJP.
You will not call anyone who says Jai Hind but not Bharat Mata Ki Jai anti-national?
How will these issues make any difference to people's lives? You can't appoint yourself as an examiner of nationalism. Who has appointed you? Who set this question? Which examination board is this? See, even you are stuck on this issue for five minutes. It is their success; they want to divert people from the main issues and engage them in things like this. But, they will fail, as they have failed before.
