Anna Hazare, who is spearheading an anti-corruption movement, tells Sreelatha Menon that no government can afford to ignore the popular will.
Your anti-corruption movement has failed. Do you think that a second fast for a Lok Pal Bill would yield different results?
I have never been bothered about name or fame. I have never done anything with a purpose to gain personally. If there is a need to fight again, I will. Whether we win is inconsequential. Today, I see a lot of support wherever I go, especially from the youth. I feel we would get more massive support this time. Meanwhile, I am ready to sacrifice my life for the cause.
The government agreed to your demands to form a joint drafting committee and even talked to you all these days. So, what went wrong?
The government did not keep its word. It kept giving us assurances but suddenly went back on these. All that the government had to do was have two separate drafts of the Lok Pal Bill, then why did it waste everyone’s time and fool us with the formation of a joint drafting committee? I feel the government was cheating us. And, it has no intention of removing corruption.
Do you feel the government had already made up its mind, even when it agreed to form a joint committee?
Its intention was not right from the beginning. They were making allegations against each member of the civil society. They first came up with CDs accusing the Bhushans, followed by allegations against Santosh Hegde. When all this was done, they started chasing Arvind (Kejriwal) and me for possible black money. And, was anything found true? So, the idea was to create distrust about the civil society members.
Baba Ramdev was recently removed forcibly from the fast site. Do you not envisage a similar action if you go back on fast?
We do. And, we are fully prepared for it. We are ready to face lathis and even bullets. We will go to jail, too. But, we will remain non-violent.
You are unable to get support from civil society groups and other civil society activists. Why is there this divide?
I believe in karma yog — that is to continue doing your work. If it is a public issue, I am sure the people of the country would join me sooner or later. As for others, Gandhiji used to say one must continue to do ‘atma clesh’ and it would affect all those around you. It means one must continue to take on suffering and hardship for a cause and others around you would be converted to your thinking.
The strategy of going on hunger strikes is seen as a form of blackmail, which is holding the government to ransom. If people started doing this all the time, don’t you think it would jeopardise the working of the government and destabilise the country?
If you call this blackmail, we will blackmail all our life. The MPs and MLAs are sent by the people as their trustees. No one is above the people. Does anyone doubt the sovereignty of the citizen? Besides, what have the elected people done? Control of the people is needed if they are to work well. Ultimately, people are the masters and they are supreme. Can 520 on the top control 1.2 billion people? They sent MPs to serve them. People have a right to ask questions and raise objections, or the country will be ruined.
But what gives the people in the movement the right to draft laws or criticise elected representatives?
The Planning Commission, which allocates funds to all the states, is an unelected body. Does anyone question its members or Chairman Montek Singh Ahluwalia?
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What are the chances that change will be brought about in in the governance system, which will ensure there is no corruption and laws are enforced?
There are two reasons why things are as bad as they are now. One, the government after Independence did not make any strong anti-corruption law. Second, there is no desire to change. People have to wake up. In Maharashtra, we struggled with popular support and got six ministers sent home for corruption. We also managed to get six strong laws enacted. So, if we struggle and raise the consciousness of the people, change will happen.
The Bharatiya Janata Party was not in favour of the inclusion of the Prime Minister in the Lok Pal jurisdiction, when a Pranab Mukherjee-headed committee suggested it. Now, the Congress does not want it. So, are you chasing an impossible target as no party may want it?
The parties would have to bow before the will of the people or they would be wiped out. The parties would be forced to support the clause if the people are overwhelmingly in favour of bringing the Prime Minister under the Lok Pal.
But won’t these require a lot of Constitutional amendments?
Even in the Constitution, no one except the President is immune to investigation. So, if the Lok Pal is to keep the Prime Minister immune, too, we would need an amendment. Not otherwise.
How would you describe yourself?
I am a social reformer and an activist. I believe serving society is like worshipping God. If I keep serving people without a desire for personal gains, it is as good as worshipping God. I want to work on issues that are linked to the lives of people such as environment, education, etc. All these require changing the people.
Do you practise yoga as prescribed by Ramdev?
I do perform yoga daily for about an hour in the morning and night. That is why even at 74, I don’t need any injection or medicine for blood pressure or heart ailments. Great saints have said for your personal happiness and peace of mind, you must provide happiness to others. And, that is what I do.
