I am rather pleased at having beaten the clock as I reach the lobby of The Imperial, New Delhi, and decide to text my guest. Ashok Chawla makes his appearance just two minutes after 1.15 pm and apologises.
We head to the 1911 restaurant — a practical choice for a Diwali week when you can’t avoid food — though we had to raise our voices quite a bit. A family party was on at the next table.
I ask him about the World Bank dampening the Indian government’s celebrations somewhat on the Ease of Doing Business score card as we rifle through the menu card. My guest for this afternoon — a former finance secretary and former chairman of the Competition Commission of India (cci), one who has taken on the task of steering all sorts of institutions out of trouble since then — isn’t surprised.
“It is good to set a target of breaking into the top 50 as the prime minister has done but it is a reminder that it is easier said than done.” Is it a setback? “No, these are work in progress. The problem with many developing countries is they write the laws but enforcing those is difficult. Moving ahead from here we will need improvements on all parameters, not just one or two and it will take time.”
I am taken aback when he says he will have a plain dosa. Is it even on the menu? When I say that might be too small, he adds a vegetarian mulligatawny soup. I decide to accompany him only till the soup, and settle for an Imperial tenderloin burger as the main course. The waiter recognises Chawla as he notes our orders.
Chawla returns to the theme of improvement and goes on to explain what he is trying to do as the boss, both at the TERI University and at the National Stock Exchange (NSE). What is it about Chawla that organisations with problems in public image seem to turn to him? “Honestly, I don’t know. But we are rebuilding at the university, bringing it back to its prime, getting the sponsors here and abroad to feel it has moved on.”
The academic institution was scarred when its then chancellor R K Pachauri had to step down on charges of molesting a woman colleague. Pachauri’s exit was messy because he moved out only to return before he finally called it a day. Chawla who had already become chairman of TERI, the energy and environment think tank in February this year, has since taken over as chancellor of the university. “From a long stint with the government, to a term with a regulatory body (CCI) and then into an academic institution — it has been a satisfying journey,” he says.
It is the right moment to ask him what he makes of the raging debate on the government’s role in academic institutions. “I didn’t come into TERI as a government nominee,” he points out. He is right. But didn’t his background as a top civil servant help? It wasn’t a case of government intervention, he reiterates. Once that happens it rides on their back as a huge apparatus, he says. The government should only play a role to build up institutions. Over time, except for cases of gross violation, those universities should be left free.
“Ultimately, the market will judge their worth, they should not be kept tied to the apron strings of the government when the aim is to build world-class institutions.”
He refers to a Business Standard series on the newly set-up IIMs to point out the danger of extension of education brands. “When I was finance secretary, I had pointed out this risk. Extending the name of IIMs or IITs to a huge number of new entrants may appeal to the socialistic streak in our political executives, I said, but it will do great harm. Even USA does not have 20 Harvards.”
What has affected the other world-class institution, NSE, of which he is now chairman? He is more reticent about that. “There’s work there, some of it because it became so successful. So successful that it almost became a monopoly. It is a crisis of achievement, you could say.”
The management became strong and the board was effectively run by the management. Just like the many checks and balances in the constitutional architecture, in the corporate world, shareholders, the board of directors and the management must operate on a similar principle, he says. “Once those arrangements dissolve there are problems, as has happened for the Tatas. Mistry, I am told, had brought in a new structure which did not sit well in the group.”
The soup dishes are removed. That gives me room to segue into the real juicy bit: L’affaire Tata. Is he surprised by the alacrity with which the group moved to keep the Prime Minister in the loop?
Chawla ponders over his dosa and says he is not. “One would expect a prominent industrial group of the country to convey such an important change to him immediately. Others would, too. Some may send men across to try and meet the Prime Minister, Tatas have stuck to form.”
I take the chance to ask him how a finance secretary deals with requests from business leaders to intercede with the finance minister or even the Prime Minister. He has seen plenty of those, he acknowledges. “The basic principle is they should not try for a one-on-one meeting with the Prime Minister, finance minister or anyone else. Why should people say, ‘Isko appointment mila, usko nahi mila.’ It is best that the push for larger policy changes comes through business chambers.” But the current Prime Minister does meet foreign business leaders in droves, I interject.
“When we are trying to be engaged with global business it makes sense — the Prime Minister is the ultimate ambassador for the country. Also the potential for controversies is far less there.”
Over the din at the next table, he expresses concern about the lack of enthusiasm among new IAS officers to serve at the Centre. “It is about the type of entrants. A lot of them have their roots in the countryside; also many of them join the service at a much older age, about 30 I would say, than our cohorts did. The impact of both these developments is they are not enamoured with rising to senior policy levels at the Centre. They are more happy to remain as important fish at the state level.” Plus, as the process of empanelment at the centre has become tougher, some, who are keen, do not make it, he adds.
Does that make a case for lateral entrants to the service? “To some extent, yes. Say, at the level of joint secretaries, one could mandate a level of say 10 per cent initially from outside, going up to 20 per cent over time.” Those officers with their areas of specialisation, he says, would bring the talent from outside to the more complex policy issues that dominate central government work now.
None of our simple lunch orders has worked great. “It is obviously not their core capability,” he says of his dosa. Before I can tell anything to the waitress, however, he tells her suavely, “I am fine, you will do better next time.” She is embarrassed and I realise why Chawla is the favourite troubleshooter for companies and academia.
She returns with a selection of desserts and Chawla chooses rasmalai. “That’s the most damaging for my health and my favourite,” he beams. I go for a fruit sorbet.
As he picks up his coat, I realise the restaurant has become much quieter. What have you been reading lately, I enquire as we walk out. “I just finished Who Moved My Interest Rate? (by Duvvuri Subbarao, former Reserve Bank of India governor), and I am now reading Democrats and Dissenters (Ramachandra Guha). Subbarao’s book is straight forward like him — not a person afraid to speak his mind. There’s subtle humour too. In that sense, it represents a combination of a good mind and a good human being.”
Both Chawla’s son and daughter are lawyers; they opted not to join the civil services. The daughter is flying back home for Diwali. The father is keen to take his leave to welcome her home.
Disclaimer: These are personal views of the writer. They do not necessarily reflect the opinion of www.business-standard.com or the Business Standard newspaper
